Panu and Thomas had an inspiring dialog with vision quest facilitator Trebbe Johnson, founder of Radical Joy for Hard Times. They discussed the concept of radical joy in the face of environmental grief and the importance of acknowledging and confronting our sorrow for the natural world. Trebbe shared her personal journey of connecting with nature and how it led her to create an organization that focuses on finding joy and gratitude in damaged places. Panu and Trebbe also discussed their time together in Finland in November 2023 and the workshops they led. 

In this episode, Panu and Thomas reflected on ways to find a sense of meaning during an era of climate breakdown and other stresses. This can include meaning in your life (such as values that guide you) and meanings of and about your life (your purpose and reasons for living, such as caring for family). Their conversation ranged over profound topics like figuring out a life path, dealing with changes and threats, and the importance of opening up and asking big questions about meaning and happiness. Join the conversation!

In this wide-ranging dialog, ecotherapy pioneer Linda Buzzell looked back on her history including her early environmental awakening working with French oceanographer Jacques Cousteau, her training in Marriage and Family Therapy and systems thinking, and her local activism in Santa Barbara, California. Linda described the development of the “Waking Up Syndrome” concept of sudden ecological awareness with her colleague Sarah Edwards and creation of  the Ecotherapy anthology with Craig Chalquist. She, Thomas and Panu also discussed the distinctions between human-centered and nature-centered ecotherapy perspectives and the need for community-level approaches. 

Thomas and Panu had a wide ranging and stimulating dialog with Matthew Schneider-Mayerson, an associate professor of English at Colby College whose work touches on the cultural and political dynamics of climate change with a focus on literature and climate justice. Matthew shared his environmental identity “origin story” including his early anti-sweatshop activism and discovering Elizabeth Kolbert’s classic climate change narrative Field Notes from a Catastrophe while waiting in his therapist's office. We discussed insights from his projects like the Ecotopian Lexicon and thoughts about helping his students create rituals together to show value for nature and the more-than human world.

What kinds of losses do we experience due to environmental problems, and how can we understand the unique feelings of grief and sorrow that can ensue? Panu talked about his recent research paper, Ecological Sorrow: Types of Grief and Loss in Ecological Grief, that applied general knowledge about grief to ecological sorrow with more nuance than has previously been attempted. Thomas shared his reactions and the duo discussed ways to cope with issues like invisible losses that are “disenfranchised” and not officially recognized by society, and situations when people are not allowed to openly express their grief and sorrow about nature. Panu’s work reveals how ecological losses can be hard to measure and seemingly never ending, which makes ideas like “nonfinite loss” and “chronic sorrow” very relevant. Thomas and Panu shared ways to face ecological loss and grief in a healthy way, and invited listeners to reflect on their own feelings and ways of expression.  

Thomas and Panu spoke with Tim Lomas, an emotions researcher and author of works like Translating Happiness and the Positive Power of Negative Emotions, who has been influential on the field of positive psychology and on our podcast. It’s always enlightening to hear about a thinker’s background. Tim shared a bit of his story including an influential time spent in China at age 19 that exposed him to Buddhist and Daoist ideas that he continues to explore in his positive psychology research. The discussion touched on the benefits of the unique “granular,” that is specific and nuanced, nature of certain emotions words that can be complex and challenging to translate outside of their native language (such as Finnish sisu, Japanese wabi-sabi or Portuguese saudade). We can use a global palate of emotions to shine a light on our relationships with nature and the natural world, including our joys, hopes, and fears. 

Thomas and Panu took stock of their feelings about the world as 2023 came to a close, and invited listeners to do the same. Thomas reflected on two quotes that are important to him and changing ways he has interpreted their meaning over the years: “In the beginner’s mind there are many possibilities. In the expert’s mind there are few” (Shunryu Suzuki); and “Find your place on the planet. Dig in, and take responsibility from there” (Gary Snyder). Panu described a ritual he participated in for the International Remembrance Day for Lost Species, celebrated on November 30. He and Thomas contemplated the importance of rituals, ceremonies and the arts including the recent Future Landscapes project.  The idea of taking stock at the end of the year is echoed in the recent COP 28 meeting and 1st Global Stocktake—a process for countries to see how they’re collectively making progress towards meeting the goals of the Paris Climate Change Agreement. We know global warming will not be limited to 1.5 degrees Celsius / 2.7 Fahrenheit. We need to adapt to a hotter world, take care of the most vulnerable, and keep working to cool the planet down by all means necessary.  

Thomas and Panu were joined by UK therapist and researcher Caroline Hickman. Caroline reflected on her formerly separate backgrounds as an environmentalist and a psychotherapist and pivotal nature experiences she had in midlife as a diving instructor that brought “all the parts of her life together." Caroline, Panu and Thomas discussed their recent activities and collaborations including the groundbreaking 2021 Lancet global survey of young people's climate emotions in ten countries worldwide. This research was powerful, Caroline and Panu explained, as it revealed crucial underlying facets of climate anxiety in youth including a lack of faith in leaders and a sense of betrayal by adults. Caroline also told of her interview studies with children and the fact that kids often know and care more than adults notice. Join us for a candid conversation and an invitation to reflect on what climate feelings tell us about the needs of young people and adults around us.  

Thomas and Panu reflected on varieties of the feeling of bitterness in response to the chronic stress of climate and environmental problems—ranging from Finnish concepts like epäreiluuden tunne (unfairness-feeling) to the “Cassandrafreude” described by climate scientists (the bitter pleasure of things going wrong in exactly the way you predicted, but no one believed you when it could have made a difference). As Panu observed, it is a psychological and ethical challenge to be proud (in a healthy way) of one’s own good actions, including “chosen losses” where a conscious decision is made to relinquish something, and to avoid (at least overly strong) bitterness. Thomas also referenced thinkers like Myisha Cherry and Audre Lorde who highlight the ethical reasons for not forgiving in the face of betrayals and injustice. 

This episode found Thomas and Panu in dialogue with Herb Simmens, a long time advocate for addressing climate issues in local government, and author of the compendium of climate-related terms, A Climate Vocabulary of the Future. What kind of new words could be useful to make sense of living in the midst of climate change?

Thomas interviewed Panu about his recent climate emotions research and the Climate Emotions Wheel created by the Climate and Mental Health Network based on Panu’s work.

Joëlle Gergis is an award-winning climate scientist and writer from the Australian National University. Joëlle was a lead author on the IPCC 6th Assessment report: Climate Change 2021: The Physical Science Basis. As the southern hemisphere summer approaches, Joëlle Gergis spoke with Panu and Thomas about her most recent book Humanity's Moment: A Climate Scientist's Case for Hope and the unique emotional challenges of confronting the human and wildlife toll of climate disasters in Australia. As Joelle noted, Australia is one of the world’s most vulnerable developed nations in terms of climate disruptions as well as a leader in fossil fuel production. So, Australians’ efforts at coping and making change are important learning for others around the globe. 

Thomas and Panu reflected on the recent Oppenheimer film, and how cold war-era fear and anxiety about global nuclear armageddon compares with contemporary fear and anxiety about the threats global climate change poses to society and the livability on our planet. Thomas spoke to the challenge of weighing the benefits of nuclear power as a strategy to help combat the climate crisis against the environmental dangers, ongoing dangers of nuclear conflict, and the still toxic legacy of radioactive waste from the construction of atomic weapons. Panu reflected on various forms of anxiety and other feelings these dilemmas inspire in us, including the “anxiety of responsibility” we feel about making decisions about them.

In a session devoted to the healing aspects of walking outdoors, Thomas and Panu spoke with social worker Jennifer Udler, author of the new book Walk and Talk Therapy: A Clinician’s Guide to Incorporating Movement and Nature into Your Practice. Their discussion touched on the practicalities of walking therapy as a modality, philosophical and transformative aspects of walking in terms of metaphors and pilgrimages, and the recognition that walking opens us both to the wonder of the natural world, and also dark aspects, including lack of safe spaces for some, and a new normal in which we all cannot separate our walking from climate change effects like heat and wildfire smoke. A key takeaway was the importance of developing a consistent relationship with a specific place, across seasons, times and weathers. 

Panu and Thomas offered listeners advice with how to cope with the new class of “unnatural disasters” that have beset the globe in past weeks and months—horrific damage from wildfires that are supercharged or that arise in places we don’t expect them, coping with simultaneous earthquakes and hurricanes—in Greece, Canada, Los Angeles, Lahaina and beyond. Thomas explained key differences in how varied types of disasters are experienced and understood. He reflected on how the loss of a treasured place like Lahaina touches both Hawaiian natives and the many visitors who have had special life experiences there (with echoes of New Orleans and the Katrina disaster). Panu shared insights from his research and the recognition that coping calls for “skills in grief,” and when appropriate, “skills in joy.”

Panu and Thomas were joined by Leslie Davenport who discussed her 2017 book Emotional Resiliency in the Era of Climate Change, and recent All the Feelings Under the Sun designed for children. Leslie reflected on her background in dance and as a member of an interdisciplinary medical team and how this contributed to her focus on the body and creative visualization in her ecotherapy work. 

In this episode, Thomas and Panu focused on the emotional aspects of travel, particularly air travel, and all the competing thoughts and feelings we have about this. Our journeys to see the world and our far flung loved ones are a central part of our lives. But, in this age of climate crisis, air travel—whether through privilege or as a sacrifice and necessity–opens us up to troubling ethical issues about our own contributions to climate problems and being trapped in an earth-damaging system of inequality and destructive tourism. Panu brought his usual wise perspective on climate emotions. Thomas shared the “UR3OK” model he uses to help people make environmentally-responsible decisions (Understand, Reduce-Reuse-Resist…, Offset, and be Kind to ourselves and others in the process). 

People have many kinds of feelings about climate and ecological crises, and many remain hidden under the surface, either because people are unsure about these or talking about them does not feel safe. In this episode, Thomas and Panu had a dialogue with Renée Lertzman, a pioneer in research and practical work about environmental feelings from a psychoanalytic perspective. Renée told of her work exposing “the myth of apathy” about climate change (people are generally not uncaring or indifferent to this issue, but lack tools to express and people who will take time to listen). Renée also explained her “Three A’s” method (helping people share their anxiety, ambivalence – mixed feelings – and their aspirations about eco and climate issues).

How does climate change impact family relationships? In this follow-up to their recent talk about couples, Thomas and Panu discussed how expressing feelings about climate change and other environmental problems is intertwined with family dynamics in many ways. Depending on the values and communication style of your family of origin, taking a stand on climate can make you a “hero” or a “black sheep.” Fear of bringing new children into an overheated world also affects those who would be grandparents. Simplistic messages that portray young people as ecologically aware and elders as being in denial are not supported by research. Alarm, concern and caution about global warming are shared by a majority in every generation in the US. While your and my family are different, we are all more together than we think. 

In this episode we look at the question “What makes for a healthy relationship between children and nature?” and by extension for all of us. To help with this, Panu and Thomas met with Louise Chawla, one of the eminent researchers of environmental psychology and child development in relation to nature. Louise described her own youth and sense of nature being “an eternal world” and how she has listened to children around the world describe their own beliefs and increasingly “fearful imaginings.” She Panu and Thomas discussed how to support children, share in their curiosity, and enlist them as collaborators as we all cope with losses and strive to make our lives better.