Season 2, Episode 23: Climate Emotions in the Family
image credit | Luemen Rutkowski
Season 2, Episode 23: Climate Emotions in the Family
How does climate change impact family relationships? In this follow-up to their recent talk about couples, Thomas and Panu discussed how expressing feelings about climate change and other environmental problems is intertwined with family dynamics in many ways. Depending on the values and communication style of your family of origin, taking a stand on climate can make you a “hero” or a “black sheep.” Fear of bringing new children into an overheated world also affects those who would be grandparents. Simplistic messages that portray young people as ecologically aware and elders as being in denial are not supported by research. Alarm, concern and caution about global warming are shared by a majority in every generation in the US. While your and my family are different, we are all more together than we think.
Links
Ballew et al 2023 Global Warming’s Six Americas across age, race/ethnicity, and gender.
Dayton, et al (2022) Family Communication About Climate Change in the United States
Call for papers: Australian & New Zealand Journal of Family Therapy Special Issue: Climate Change and Family Therapy
Transcript
Transcript edited for clarity and brevity.
Thomas Doherty: Please support the climate change and happiness podcast see the donate page at climatechangeandhappiness.com.
[music: “CC&H theme music”
Doherty: Hello, I'm Thomas Doherty.
Pihkala: And I am Panu Pihkala.
Doherty: And welcome to Climate Change and Happiness, our podcast. This is a show for people around the globe who are thinking and feeling deeply about climate change. The personal side of climate change. Their emotional responses.
And today we are going to talk about climate emotions in our family. A really juicy topic. We've been thinking about couples relationships and significant others. And today we're going to talk about family. So we're going to invite you listeners to think about your family. Wherever you live in the world. And your family relationships. Panu, you know, we've been talking about this. And you're, of course, in a family as well. And have the Finnish context. But what are the kinds of things that come up for you around climate, emotions, and family?
Pihkala: Yeah, this is one great example of how climate change is having so many different kinds of impacts. So not just the physical, but also the human impacts. And in this case, impacts on human relations and dynamics, including family dynamics. So no matter what kind of family you are in. And people can have quite different kinds of families here and extended families. In a growing manner, climate change is affecting those dynamics. And that's what we really want to discuss and explore today.
In Finland, my workshops often include young people. And among them, one big issue is generational differences in climate opinion. And the emotional impact of those differences. Sometimes there can be disputes. Or even quite heated arguments. Or lead into complicated dynamics, like being silent about certain matters. And doing identity related things. And many of these dynamics are quite common in families in relation to a lot of topics. So even just the basic human relations. But now they have this extra climate dimension or environmental dimension. And I'm also interested in, which is sort of primary in various cases. Sometimes there can be differences already. And then the climate matters become entangled in that. And sometimes the other way around. But I suspect, Thomas, that this is something that comes up a lot in your work. And of course, we have our daily lives also.
Doherty: Yeah. Well, I think this has two levels. You know, like binocular vision, like we've talked about in the past. Like we see the climate change impacts in the family, but we also see the existing family roles and relationships. It reminds me of this concept of issues and issues that I talk about sometimes. We have our capital I big issues we want to work on in the world. Social justice and climate change and our own health and prosperity. But then we have our personal issues. Our personal baggage. Our losses. Our idiosyncrasies. Our personality styles. Our traumas. Our neuroses, you know. Our limitations that we're always trying to grow past. And kind of things people talk about in therapy.
But families of course have issues and issues too. They have whatever the big thing they're talking about, but then you can't get away from all the little family relationships and resentments. Well both positive things. Let's talk about the positives. Some families really get along well together and support each other. And there's a lineage and a history and mentoring and support. But then, you know, families have their schisms. You know, their resentments. Their difficulties communicating. And so we have issues and issues. Like I think you've talked about, children and siblings sometimes get stuck in roles like the good child and the bad child or the middle child. And then that can come out. Do you see that coming out with climate behaviors and beliefs?
Pihkala: I have seen instances of it. And heard people talk about it. And, of course, this, you know, “good child - bad child” dynamic can then be linked to other relations. Like a good son in law and a bad son in law. Or good daughter in law and bad daughter in law. So there may be all kinds of versions of this. And many factors come into play in these inter-generational things, also in Finland. A lot of the grandparents' generation people were born in the countryside. Or may still have closer ties than the youngest generations. So in some of this, you know, valuing and sometimes splitting can be then related to, for example, the countryside/city split. Which is a common feature in environmental discourses. And it shouldn't be overdramatized either. It's one great example where we need critical analysis of the discourses around environmentalism. It's not just cities against the countryside. That's way too simple. But that persists. And sometimes can also be a factor affecting relations.
Doherty: Yeah, totally. And so listeners, I want to get some traction with you all just listening a little deeply. Think about your own family. You all have families. And really think about the actual people in the families. Your siblings, if you have siblings, brothers or sisters. Your parents. Your grandparents. Your children. So I know in the US an urban rural split. Or an urban suburban rural split can be common. Obviously, there's some really toxic polarization things happening in the US right now politically. But I really want you all listeners to really think about your own selves and your relationships. Because yeah, some families value tradition. And in certain families, it's right to respect the elders. And we do want to look at the elders for their wisdom. But if elders are staying in a kind of fossil fuel dominated worldview. And young people are moving to a different worldview. That's a reasonable place of difference to talk about.
And, of course, we look cross-culturally around the world. Obviously, there's different family values regarding, you know, collective family and respect for the family. Versus, you know, [in] some cultures, it's not okay to question your parents or question your elders. So it does bring a lot around the world. And so I want, you know, the listeners to think about this. You know, where I go with a lot of this is back to my idea of environmental identity. And we have this identity about ourselves in relation to nature and the natural world. And we can learn about this. And see our own timeline of our life. And where we grew up. And our relationships. And what we've learned. And what we've seen. And we have our values. And we want to stand up for these values. And really grow this identity. It's positive. It can be a positive identity.
But the really neat thing is to and, you know, listeners, you can think about this, too. Now you have your environmental identity. Your values. Your beliefs. Your sense of yourself that's growing and changing. But now step back and think about the family tree that you're in. This family tree, with your parents and your siblings and your children. Each person on the family tree has an environmental identity, also. And a timeline. And a set of experiences. And a set of education and a worldview. Your mother has an environmental identity. Your father; your grandmother; your grandfather; your great grandfather; your great grandmother; your siblings;your daughter; your son. I find it really fascinating to sort of think about the other identities that my family members have. And then I start to understand, oh, I can see. I can see why they feel that way. I've seen this in my own family. I've seen it with students that I've worked with when they've kind of learned things. And so it's really interesting to step back a little bit and think about the environmental identity of all these members.
Pihkala: Thanks, Thomas. I think that's really very helpful. And in all these communication situations, it would be really great if we could at least sometimes approach them with compassion both towards the other and ourselves. And at least sometimes be able to take a step back. And try to look at the situation from a wider lens. A bit like this “binocular vision” thing I've been applying to several things. And it just links to [British Psychoanalyst] Wilfred Bion's work also. For example, if we have teenagers who are very progressive in climate politics, and we have grandparents who feel hesitation. And feel all kinds of difficulty because they have lived their lives, according to a different kind of consciousness and values.
And, of course, there have been choices along the way. That doesn't mean that those who are now old don't have any responsibility. But I still think that we need contextual analysis. That it was different to make those decisions in the 60s, and even the 70s. So try to think about the situation also from the point of view of the other person. What are general things going on in people of that age in their minds? And what are some of the needs? One could evoke the psychological frame of developmental tasks and needs here. So, for example, older people desire respect and want to leave a positive legacy. And if they feel that there is now no way to do that, of course, they will feel very threatened. An may react more aggressively than they would like to, for example, in this climate conversation. So I think there's plenty in the situations going on.
Doherty: Yeah, and nowhere is that more stark than in young adults' decisions about having children. We've talked about this in our podcast with our episodes with Britt Ray and Jade Sasser. That's where this comes out often for families when the elderly. The prospective grandparent. Again, this is the whole idea of the last possible self that comes into play here. I would always be a parent, and my children grow up well. I will assume somehow I will be a grandparent. It's just what I've always thought about myself.
And then suddenly I hear my children saying they might not want to have children. It can be a huge rite of passage. And really an issue for the family to work through. And so this is a real, salient kind of example of that. But, again, it's in small ways too. Classic family therapy talks about the family roles of kids. There's the “hero” child that really embodies the family's values and future and everybody loves that child. And then there's the “scapegoat” child that doesn't. The “black sheep.” That doesn't necessarily go along with the family. And that's still true. And families and listeners, you can think about how that feels for you. In some families, the hero is the eco child that's wanting to do these sustainability things. But in some families, the eco sustainable, you know, child could be the scapegoat. Could be the black sheep. That's the issue.
So just, there's no easy answer for this. But it's just helpful to see it. To see it recognized. And to understand. I know personally, I've tread both, as the oldest son in my family. When I was younger, I was the hero child because I did well in school. And I went to college. And I'm the first person in my family to go to college. But when I didn't follow a traditional life path. And went into all the different, strange and funny things that I've done in my life. Then I really flirted with the black sheep, you know, persona also. And the sad part is that my parents never fully understood some of this work that I do. They're both deceased now. But I can remember my father who was quite conservative. [A] working-class Buffalo, New York person. Not at all an environmentalist in any way. But I can remember when he started talking about climate change. And the weather in Buffalo. And my surprise when he said, “oh, yeah, the weather, the winter, you know, it's that climate change.” And I was like, “really?!” Okay. So, you know, seeing him, like seeing that [climate change], you know. Practically understand that. So people do also evolve and change.
That's the other thing. I've had so many times, work with students and college aged or graduate students and they'll be different than their family. I'm thinking of an Asian student who was doing environmental work. And her parents were much more of the American dream. Like getting a house, getting a car, establishing herself. Because they were immigrants. But once she started doing her work her mother would send her news articles. And sort of want to support. I have a therapist I was working with just recently who I hadn't thought about but it's really a perfect example. Because she is in the US and in Italy. And she wanted to work in Italy. But her family is much more upper upper middle class Milan, Italian family. You know, status and fashion and things. And she was feeling very risky about putting herself out there doing ecological work. But when she posted recently on her LinkedIn professional page, the first two people to congratulate her were her father and a relative who she was concerned would judge her. So she was very relieved. So you never know. You never know. There are positive stories here, as well.
Pihkala: Yeah, I think that's very rich. Thanks for sharing that Thomas. And totally resonating with these family therapy concepts which are not so familiar for me, because I'm no expert in family therapy. But I have my own experiences and observations of how people may change when some people follow unordinary paths. And they may not say it directly, but it goes back partly to what you called with the term love language in an earlier episode we did around a couple. So they may show their appreciation in some other way. And especially if we can avoid total confrontations around environmental and climate issues. And you know, total commitment to, for example, opposing identities, then there is more space over the years for attitudes to change. And also people to manifest things.
Like, you know, that well I never said I or both, or both this totally. And actually, I have been sort of secretly in for this for a long time. And regardless of whether that is completely true or not, I think it's still great if people are able to change and adapt. And that's something very valuable. What I have been working [on] lately in my academic work is theories of grief and bereavement applied to ecological grief. And I don't want to go too deeply into that now. That's a topic for another episode. But the basic distinction in grief theory between tangible loss and intangible loss can be helpful here because we can easily see some losses. For example, something or somebody is not there anymore. But then there is intangible loss, which is much easily left unnoticed or even disenfranchised. Because we can't see it with our eyes or even notice it with our senses. And the sort of loss of the role of grandparent food, for example, is a prominent example of intangible loss, and which can also continue over time. So sometimes in our families, we have these intangible losses. And people would, of course, benefit from having social support for that. And that may be tricky. Especially if we never talk about climate and grief and sadness and different kinds of related losses.
Doherty: Yeah, that's a great takeaway, Panu. So listeners, you can think about this. There's tangible and intangible losses. So there's losses we can see. They're quite concrete. And there are ones that are a little more. I don't know what the word would be for intangible. They're harder to pin down because they're an absence of something. Like potentially not having grandchildren that you thought. But yeah, being able to talk about these things. There's no easy answer. We have to say that. That's the problem with climate change. It poses these really stark dilemmas for us. And it does affect our family. But I want to also do another thing. You know, we've talked about this in our recent conversation with Janet Lewis. We talked about this idea of a dialectic where you have a certain idea about the world. And you say, well, what about the opposite idea, as well? And how do we kind of look between these two? Because there's a stereotype that young people are more concerned about climate change than elders. Right. And we hear that again and again. And that is true, but it isn't really as true as we would think.
So I'm looking at the Yale climate programs recent Six Americas research. So they've studied people's environmental identity. And their beliefs about climate change around the world. And, you know, we have to be careful when we look at the news and we look at research. Yes, statistically, in the US Gen Z and millennials are more likely to be alarmed or concerned about climate change than baby boomers or older generations. But it isn't as different as you would think. You know. Yes 11% of the baby boomers and older generations are dismissive of climate change. And 11% of Gen X are. But 7% of millennials are also dismissive of climate change. And yes, 30% of Gen Z, and millennials are alarmed, you know, in the US population based on this research. But 26% of Gen Z and 25% of the other generations as well. So, there's a huge swath, the actual patterns hold through for all the generations. Most of the Baby Boomers in the US. The baby boomers and other generations, the large, you know, they are either concerned or alarmed. So the group was concerned and alarmed them, so maybe we'll put this figure in our show notes. They're quite similar. So yes, statistically, they're slightly more. But if we then think in that black and white, we put these people into two categories. But the reality is, when we look across all the generations, most people in the US are concerned and are alarmed. And only a small percentage, relatively, are doubtful or dismissive across all the generations. And, again, including some very young. There's a group of young people that are doubtful and dismissive as well. So people are far more together than they realize.
Pihkala: Yeah. I think that's a very important point. And we've sometimes done public writing on the topic in Finland together with colleagues. Because there is a danger in, for example, climate anxiety, discourses that people start to link it only with young people. And that's really not true. We have to remember that in every age group, we have people who are very worried. And as you say, Thomas, people who, for a reason or another are not so not so worried. And this also dynamics can then make it actually very difficult, for example, for older people who feel a lot of climate anxiety. Because if that's not commonly talked about in their age group and in their social settings.
And if we have a public discourse, which links climate anxiety with young people, they may feel very isolated. The Finnish broadcasting company who actually did a survey about this one year ago, targeting older people. And the results and stories were very striking. They interviewed me also for the story. And exactly these dynamics, which I mentioned, came up when somebody about 60 years old, had talked about climate anxiety. And others had said to her that, you know, that's a sort of disease for children and young people, not for you. This word disease doesn't translate well. And I don't mean that climate anxiety is a disease. But anyway, you can hear all kinds of opinions around. So just wanting to validate that also. That it may sometimes be quite tricky for older people who have these emotions.
Doherty: Yeah. So you can imagine some elder having another elder say, well, that's a young person's problem. You know, you have other things to work on. But yeah, we're more together than we think. And often when you give people more accurate information and more perspective they then bring that information into their life. Right. So anyway point being is that. Among our listeners, obviously, we have a select group of, of highly, you know, conscientious listeners who are interested in climate issues and emotions. But I know our listeners are many Gen X and baby boomers and older generation listeners that we have. And I know they're saying, hey, don't lump me into this stereotype.
But something you said just now about how that media story that only young people are concerned and the other is not makes young people feel lonely and unsupported. And it builds this illusion in young people that there's no one out there. It is dangerous, actually, for young people because they haven't lived enough in the world. And yet to know that that's not true. So we want to be careful about that. This is another reason why the media isn't always our friend because they tend to simplify things. And make them into simple black and white scenarios. And they are not. So the message for young people that are listening, is that no, people believe, much like you do across the spectrums. And I can guarantee that there are many, many passionate elders that have been working on this issue for years and years and years.
Pihkala: Yeah, yeah. And one practical thing that one may try to do is to ask about what were the weather conditions, grandpa, when you were young? What kind of animals, for example, birds were around, grandmother in the days of your youth, for example. So this is something that some climate communication experts have been recommending that not starting the conversation with key words, like climate anxiety, but instead asking about personal histories and disconnects with environmental identity, and dynamic also. And then people may say surprising things. And it often becomes very clear that they have noticed many kinds of changes over the years. People are usually not ignorant of this. But they may have difficulties in talking about climate, political terms, for example. But going to the actual experiences, and often there is some feelings of ecological loss and ecological hope there. That may be one way to get forward in some of these intergenerational conversations. I don't know what you think of that, Thomas yourself?
Doherty: No, I think it's a beautiful strategy. And I've used it myself, because I like talking with elders about all kinds of things. And I value my elderly relatives a great deal for that. And, you know, really what's happening, Panu, is when you ask someone that question, what you're saying, and the subtext is I care about you. And I care about your life. And I care about your opinions. And I value your experience and your history. And so that, of course, plays into this idea of respecting elders. Yeah. So being curious. Now, there's a slight chance that will backfire if you connect with a strident climate denier. Because then they'll use this as an example to lecture you about how weather used to be different. But that's rare. Most of the time, if someone is genuine, they'll just talk about the weather. Like my example with my father. Like they would tell you how winters were in Buffalo, New York. And people collectively know that the temperatures have changed in the lake. The lake temperature used to be different. The weather patterns were different. The lake would freeze more. And across the northern US, the lakes would freeze. People could ice skate. They could go ice fishing. And now that's all changing. And the warmer lakes are more likely to pick up snow and create more lake effect snow. And people know that. They know that kind of thing. And that's, of course, true all over the world, in every ecosystem. From the poles to the equator. People know that. And it's a thing to talk about.
And I've often used that as a technique with my elders. Even about anything. Talking about what music you listened to. What movies did you like? Where did you live? You know. But yes, what was the weather like? You know, keeping in mind that the environmental revolution, so to speak, in terms of environmentalism really didn't become global, you know, largely popular until after Earth Day. yYou know,in the early 1970s. So there's a swath of people that grew up pre Earth Day, where they weren't necessarily clued into these ideas. So young people forget, because they've always lived with this from birth. But older people can go back to a time before, you know, before time. Before this was an issue. So it is, the key is again, I love you. I care about you. This is valuable for me. This is why I'm living my life in this way. But I still love and care about you too. Even if you don't agree with me. You know, and that's a way to move forward in these things. It's easier said than done, obviously. And I've been in different places with it personally myself.
Pihkala: Yeah, totally fascinating. And I don't want to give any impression of bright siding here either. These conversations can be very difficult. But if people can include that kind of emotional communication, you mentioned Thomas. Either coming, in this case, from the grandparents to the grandchildren. And the other way around. That is very important in the years to come. And we will need these basic human relations. And I think that people shouldn't break them over the difficulties if only possible. So I really think we need these messages of respect and care from various family members.
Doherty: Yeah, that's a good tone to end our discussion on. So, listeners, we've talked a bit about families. And really take away for you is to think about your own family. And your role in the family. And having compassion for yourself, whether you're the good child or the scapegoat or the black sheep, or the grandparent or the grandchild. We have our big issues. And we have our little issues. And we all have an environmental identity. So we're going to keep talking about that. And Panu and I are both parents. And living this out in various ways. So good luck to you all listeners and Panu. Have a good rest of your evening. Take care of yourself.
Pihkala: Take care everyone. Thanks, Thomas.
Doherty: The Climate Change and Happiness Podcast is a self funded volunteer effort. Please support us so we can keep bringing you messages of coping and thriving. See the donate page at climatechangeandhappiness.com.
