Season 5, Episode 23: A New Edition of Ecotherapy and Remembering Martin Jordan — With Hayley Marshall & Joe Hinds
image credit | Sebastian Pichler
Thomas Doherty was joined by Haley Marshall and Joe Hinds, editors of the new edition of Ecotherapy: Theory, Research, Practice, and Education, of which Thomas authored the first chapter. The trio reflected on the science and stories behind ecotherapy’s rise from the margins to mainstream practice, and remembered their colleague, pioneering UK ecotherapist, Martin Jordan. Contrary to common misconceptions, outdoor or ecotherapy is neither new, nor unstudied. Thinkers like Martin, Hayley, Joe, Thomas and others have been clarifying and building best practices in this field for decades. This episode is an essential listen for those seeking a solid background on the history and development of mental health therapy in the outdoors.
Links
Joe Hinds, Hayley Marshall, and Martin Jordan (Anthology Editors), 2026, Ecotherapy: Theory, Research, Practice & Education (2nd Ed.)
Martin Jordan, 2014. Nature and Therapy: Understanding counselling and psychotherapy in outdoor spaces.
Martin Jordan & Hayley Marshall, 2010. Taking counselling and psychotherapy outside: Destruction or enrichment of the therapeutic frame?
Martin Jordan, Martin Milton, & Paul Stevens, 2010. EDITORIAL Ecopsychology: Past, present & future. The European Journal of Ecopsychology. 1. 1.
Jordan, Martin 2009 Nature and Self—An Ambivalent Attachment? Ecopsychology.
Hayley Marshall & Joe Hinds, J. 2017 Martin Jordan Remembered. Ecopsychology.
Transcript
Transcript edited for clarity and brevity.
Doherty: Well Hello, Thomas Doherty. This is the Climate Change and Happiness Podcast. Typically, I'm co-hosting with my colleague Panu Pihkala from Finland, but he is unable to join us today. but it's here we're recording in the summer of 2026. And I'm really excited for this episode because we have you know, in this podcast I often have ideas of people that we would like to have as guests and colleagues and people I've worked or Panu has worked with and it's really nice to bring people in, particularly if you haven't had chance to meet them in person. and so, one of my areas is ecotherapy and doing therapy in the outdoors. So that's going to be our focus today. And I'm really glad and excited to have two special guests with us.
Marshall: Hi, I'm Hayley Marshall. I'm from the UK, the Peak District in the UK. It's very beautiful at the moment. We've had a lot of warm, wet weather, so it's really lush here. I'm an eco-psychotherapist and an ecological trainer, and I've been practicing for what feels like a very long time, but it's actually only about 20 years. So, I'm really looking forward to our conversation.
Hinds: Yeah, hi, I'm Joe Hines. I'm also in the UK. I'm down on the southeast coast of the UK. I'm also like Hayley, a practicing eco psychotherapist and an educator. I'm a teacher of psychotherapy as well. And also lapping up the good weather we're having at the moment.
Doherty: Mm. Yeah, well, Haley and Joe, it's really an honor to have you here on the podcast. I've known of Haley and Joe for well, you know, some time. Well maybe going on fifteen, twenty years. Hayley and Joe have a new edited volume ecotherapy that's just coming out now, which is the re-edition of the original ecotherapy text from 2016
So, we'll check in on that. And both Hayley and Joe have been innovators in outdoor and ecotherapy, particularly in the UK, and then the work has kind of been you know learned of over here in the US. and then we want to just recognize the memory of Martin Jordan, who was integral to this this project here in the past. but why don't we get started with a little background?
Maybe you both can just share a short a short, you know, background on how you how you came to do practicing eco therapist and what when you look into your background, either your early background childhood or your early professional life, what led you to this to this activity?
Hinds: I'm kind of happy to start there. I'm going to have to condense this, so it fits the time frame, but I was raised in rural New Zealand as a child. And I went barefoot till I was 11 when I came to the UK. I went through some fairly traumatic sort of family breakups and it wasn't until much later on in my adult life in the UK that I crossed paths with a certain Martin Jordan and he and I got talking because I came at that time from an environmental psychology background and he was very keen to pick my brains; I was very keen to pick his. And we formed a partnership, friendship at that time. And that would have been, I'm going to guess around 2012 when we first got together, and we went on some outdoor expeditions and one or two other things to the to the peak district and yeah that and that's I stepped away from environmental psychology although you never step away from it completely and realized the much you know much more valuable sort of approach to well-being which was psychotherapy.
I saw psychotherapy as a far more hands-on doing approach than the psychological perspective, which turned to be far more theoretical. I still go back to it on occasions, but I am first and foremost a psychotherapist. Psychotherapy is a far more “doing” approach.
Doherty: Mhm. That's great. What about you, Hayley? What's what do you think about your background or origin story? What comes up for you?
Marshall: well, I think in my childhood, you know, I think I think I think eco psychotherapists often have an origin story that's rooted in childhood. People who really go into this work at depth. mine's very rooted there. I grew up in rural Buckinghamshire on a farm and was outside as a small child a lot. I was pretty feral really. which was not always a good thing. I mean it sounds idyllic, but of course it you know, there's a lot of trauma kind of wrapped up in that.
So, it's very rich territory really for kind of siphon me in this direction eventually. you know, I have a very deep connection to being outside. It's almost cellular for me. I just I kind of live and breathe it and think through it, you know, think and feel through the outdoors really. but in terms of my later life, I mean I, you know, like many people, I kind of moved away from that world and became a musician. Then again, like many people got into the therapeutic world through having my own therapy. finding that really useful. Became a therapist, was a therapist for about 12 years and then started to think I can't sit in the chair for the rest of my professional career because I don't think I'll survive. and started looking for something else and actually at that time was doing a lot of walking in the Peak district, which is where I'm living. And just began searching for something that I wasn't actually quite sure what I was looking for. But at the time there were a few embryonic things going on in this country. So, I found what was called a wilderness immersion trip up on sky.
Doherty: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Marshall: which I've written about actually in our book and went there and went on this course and it changed my life basically. I mean I you know, I mean I won't go into loads of detail, but what was going on it was live process, you know, canoeing, camping, working with group process live in the moment and I just knew that that was what I was going to be doing for the rest of my life basically. And I've still got the sense of sitting on the side of a mountain looking out across a sea loch, you know, watching a sea eagle and just knowing that this was going to be it. And in the valley the group were, you know, that like I could see our camp and I knew what was going on in the human world.
Doherty: Wow. Mm-hmm.
Marshall: nested within this much broader, soaring Scottish landscape. And you know, it kind of went on from there really. I mean, I met Martin at a very unusual gathering of people, which is a story in itself. and you know, he and I got together and professionally and just kind of started chewing things over. And from then on, you know, it's like that's our work developed really.
Doherty: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Marshall: So yeah, I mean that's you know, that's the kind of abridged version.
Doherty: Yeah. How old were you when you had that really that special outdoor trip?
Marshall: In Scotland? I was in my early forties then. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, I wasn't mega young or anything like that. So, it's yeah, yeah.
Doherty: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Well that's helpful because this can happen every any time in your life. And I think you know, one of the themes that I like to talk about with people is that, you know, you don't have to have an idyllic childhood, you know, with a grandparent mentor, you know, on a farm somewhere is not the only origin story. That is one of the common ones, but
Marshall: Mm.
Doherty: I know I did not have outdoor special background experience till until my twenties, you know, really when I left where I was from and traveled. So, it could be at any age. So, listeners out there, you know, I always like to highlight this because sometimes people think, I'm not enough. Like I can't be an ecotherapist or an environmental person because I didn't have the right childhood and that's just not at all the case. You know, this is always available for us.
Marshall: Yeah, I think that's really true, you know, because there’s someone I'm working with now, his origin story would be like in London. He often talks about the alleyways behind the house, you know, where they grew up and the richness of that ecological spot, and he was outside, but it was an urban landscape.
Doherty: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Hinds: And there are some good theories to suggest that our sort of development is not really caught up with the predication of sort of living in urban environments. We're evolutionarily geared to live in natural environments and it's only in relatively recent human history that we live in urban environments. In fact, I think WHO, the World Health Organization, made a statement in 2006 that for the first time in human history, the majority of the world's population now live in cities. And that the innate tendency for us to want to connect with nature is of course still very much alive and well in us, absolutely.
Doherty: Mm-hmm. Yeah, it kind of simmers underneath and every once in a while, it gets rediscovered, in the news or something like that. So, the modern world keeps distracting us from that. and I'm looking at this paper, we were talking earlier, Hayley and Martin Jordan did a paper back in 2010 taking counseling and therapy outside, destruction or enrichment of therapeutic frame.
Marshall: Yeah. Mm.
Doherty: And I was saying that I still refer to this paper and use it when I help to train, you know, ecotherapist or in classes because one of these papers that does lay out some of the groundwork here.
Hinds: I think you may be Hayleys first fan, Thomas.
Doherty: Yeah, yeah. That's great. Well, it gets at these terms like nearby nature, the idea that, you know, nature can be right in our neighborhood. I just saw a study come out about that just the other day. People are still realizing that nature can be a whole range of things from wild places to, you know, domestic nature in in your home.
And then the whole construction of what wilderness is and getting past some of these social ideas. and then you know what why this paper I thought was good was because I know you both were really what would I say, very honoring the actual psychotherapeutic process and really, you know, using theory, like not just saying I'm going to throw out all the all the psychotherapeutic knowledge I have, but actually integrating things,
Marshall: Yeah. Mm. No. Yes.
Doherty: We talked to Mark Williams. I don't know if you know Mark Williams in in Wales, but I we just interviewed him recently and he's also kind of I think on the current vanguard of this kind of work with the theory. But yeah, what where I'm going with this for either the public or for our ecotherapy listeners out there, you know, it's come we've come a long way. What do you remember what it was like to talk about this in 2010 when you were talking about this? I imagine you must have gotten a lot of pushback from the traditional therapists who thought therapy should be in a room.
Marshall: Yeah. Yes, there was quite a bit. I mean I think it was a mixture of very exciting and just feeling like certainly for me, you know, like I was let off a leash. but not so much so that we were, you know, using this word again, going feral.
Doherty: Mm
Marshall: I think there's a sense of going wild, you know, which is different for me because there's a sense the difference I understand there is something about being let out with some discipline. So, we still wanted to hold the frame, and we were critiqued for that. We were critiqued by the traditional therapy community. You know, lots of people thought we were wrecking the frame just by definition, just by taking it out of the room. And then there were other people who thought we were overly clinging onto it [the room]. You know so that, so we were kind of caught in the middle and I think Martin in particular was very keen on, you know, holding our mid-ground, which I think that article does do.
Doherty: yeah, interesting. Yeah.
Marshall: And you know, we formulated a lot of the article through simply going out and doing it. There wasn't any training, certainly not in this country then. And there are now, its big changes, you know, over this period of time. so basically, we’ve had sort of guinea pig clients, which sounds terrible, but I mean it you know, it was it was agreed. These people kind of knew what we were doing. and then we did a lot of co-supervision and we were also formulating a little training course at the same time, and Martin was writing his PhD. So, we were really trying to fathom it out, and it was a mixture of going out and doing and then coming back in and talking and reflecting and thinking theoretically and sifting through what was in the existing kind of psychotherapeutic literature as to what would be useful to support what we were trying to do. So, you know, to be able to hold the work but not clamp it down so much that you lose what actually is gained through taking it out. yeah, I mean you know just thinking about it now, I remember it was it was it was tremendously exciting. You know so exciting and Martin was an absolute joy to do it with because he was a very funny man. There was a lot of laughing and a lot of irreverence and yeah, a lot of swearing
Doherty: Yeah. there's a there's an art to this.
Hinds: Yeah, that's my memory of him as well. We got on far too well. And that's the thing. Interestingly, in 2006, I was presenting ideas of environmental psychology and wellbeing and being out in nature to psychology audiences and I was getting the same response. You know, on occasions I would be laughed at for presenting, you know, these, these kind of, you know, parallel ideas. And, and the strange thing is, you know, 10, 12, 14 years later, the people that were laughing at me have got on the bandwagon and all their research seems to be around doing well-being studies in the outdoors. Nobody likes a good idea, do they really? Especially if it's new.
Doherty: Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And laughing at is there's some statement in the in the Tao or something about if you someone you know doesn't laugh at the idea then it's probably not a really new one or a good one.
Hinds: Yeah. I like that. Yeah, I like that idea.
Yeah. yeah, I'm just resonating because I'm very similar in time frame to you. I finished my psychology program and was licensed in practice 2004 and I started teaching and doing classes and yeah, certain people always have gotten this immediately. They understood exactly what was happening. And other people they just realized they had just mental categories that were separate and they could not link therapy and nature. And then they would often make a joke like, are you are you therapizing trees or something like that? You know, it was because they were uncomfortable.
Marshall: Really. Yeah.
Doherty: I mean, this is a deep topic. There's a lot of uncomfort and you know, repressed, you know, connections with nature in our society and people f feel like, you know, when you bring it up, they're resistant to it because it's different and scary that we don't need to go deep into that right now. But yes, and you know, creating the training program that you couldn't have. So, I think that's really that's really what happened with me. Yeah. Yeah.
Marshall: Well, I have a working theory about that, Thomas, that the act of play is sometimes a very, dangerous and frightening place for people to retreat to. And of course, the nature of play is, often naturally, you know, associated with childhood in outdoor places and that that somehow the retreat into or the regression into a childlike state is something to be avoided, something that is frightening. And I've seen it; I've seen an awful lot in practice that the people who have this desperate need or urge to go and play, climb a tree, run about, to resist the temptation to do so desperately because it will remind them of things that they've done a very good job of purposefully forgetting.
Doherty: Yeah. I think either personally and then also societally there's a social silencing about climate change and, you know, destruction of places and our need to have a healthy environment. yeah.
Marshall: Sure. Yeah. I think that's really important because I think, you know, eco psychotherapy is an enlivening practice. and it brings all sorts of things alive, you know, not just personal material, it's like the deeply held cultural problems and trouble, you know, that we've we were all carrying somewhere that we're actually quite cut off from still.
Hinds: If we were to see those things and to actively engage them, it would mean that we would feel the compulsion to do something. that's what, putting things into action and doing things is what people would rather not do because it takes away from their day-to-day lives, their day-to-day activities. If I was to see the truth, that means that I would feel the compulsion to want to do something about it. I'd rather bury my head, please, because... Yeah.
Marshall: Yeah.
Doherty: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And I know even in the UK, I mean in the US we have some terrible repressive things happening regarding, you know, environmental protections and also environmental protest. So that's a piece. Luckily, ecotherapy itself doesn't have to be overtly political like that. And it's still, I think people I know in the US here even where I live in Portland and I supervise therapists. Many, many therapists, especially since COVID, are doing walking therapy and outdoor therapy. And it that used to be seen as quite strange, you know, back in the old days as we were talking about. But now it's not uncommon at all for therapists to advertise that they do walk and talk therapy. And I find the public likes it. They want it. They are they are calling for it. So, it's interesting.
So, you did the re I've got these books sitting here in front of me. I've got the original ecotherapy and now the new ecotherapy theory, research, practice, and education. So, I thought we should spend some time here to talking about how that ecotherapy volume has changed and what you know, what what's exciting and interesting about this new volume and how, you know, what you discovered in in in working on it or just your experience with that.
Hinds: Yeah. I mean, to start us off, the book could have been a more expanded version than the current one because we managed to get some really very interesting people, some indigenous people from Australia and other contributors who didn't actually manage to get to submit a chapter in the end. it's not as expansive as we would have liked it to have been. But in terms of the obvious difference from the last edition, it's got an education sort of section about how do we teach these ideas? And some of the ideas about, Hayley might want to speak about is the supervision of ecotherapy outdoors, which again has had very, very little airtime. So there has been some definite important developments in the new edition based on those two elements.
Doherty: Yeah, yeah.
Marshall: Mm. Yeah. For me, I was particularly keen on getting the education side of things going in this volume. It's a sign of the times, you know. When I first started, there weren't any really training courses. Now there are a few here. but I think what still needs addressing is the notion of what kind of education, you know, what kind of process do practitioners doing this work actually need? Do they need the one we're always doing, you know, with main or mainstream psychotherapists, or do they need something else? To really support more expansive notion of what this practice is. And you know, my feeling is it's the latter that we actually need to really think carefully about the way people are being, not trained , I don't like the word trained, you know, even it's like educated, led out into onto the land and allow the land to teach.
So, you know, we've got we've got a smallish education section in this book and supervision is also part of it. Again, same idea, you know, what is supervision, you know, how's that different for a for an ecological practitioner? does it need to be outside for instance, you know, and of course it's very different if it is. I mean the minute you start to include a much broader intelligence in the work; very interesting things happen.
Doherty: Mm-hmm.
Marshall: it's not pure purely human anymore, you know, and what does that do? And so, I thought it was it was really important for us to start to stretch out into that realm. And as Joe says, you know, s some of the I mean, we have a lot of revised chapters in this book because a lot of them stand the test of time really well. I mean yours is one of them.
Doherty: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Marshall: Both Joe and I have written ones that were still in there. We've you know, we've tinkered with them a bit, but basically, they hold up well even after this period of time. so, it's important to say that. And yes, it was disappointing that we didn't have other voices from up, you know, like the southern hemisphere. But you know, there are limitations when you're bringing a book together like this and you know, it took a while even to get this one together, didn't it, Jo?
Doherty: Yeah. Yeah. No, and it's the aspiration even back to the early eco the first eco psychology volume from Sierra Club Press and Rosak and those folks back in the like mid-nineties, ninety-five, they ended up having to like to interview some people to get them into the volume because they were trying to do the same thing. So, it's a general, you know it’s the story of this, yeah.
Marshall: Right. Yeah.
Hinds: So, I'm very much with Hayley on this, is the idea that we have a tendency in the world generally and certainly in education that we tell people the way things are. And as my good friend would say, no one's learned a bloody thing by being told. And the importance is to offer a situation or an environment where there can be some self-discovery. And I think that it is very much in the format of therapy itself. The education of people about things, it has to have a more of an experiential and self-discovery element attached to it rather than a more of the typical dictatorial style. It's good to have conversations. It's good to have a chat about the things that people come up with while they are going through some processes. And I think that the teaching or the teachers that I've come into contact with, a lot of them, the teaching is purely about them and for them. It's not necessarily about the people they want to educate. I've also met some people who have been wonderful people in terms of being able to communicate really important concepts without it being, you know, rammed home, unpleasantly in that sort of typical educational style. And I think there's something about that, the more organic experiential encounter with things, is, I think, you know, Hayley is getting at here which I'm very much on board with.
Doherty: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, experiential education. I mean, many people in this work have an experiential education, outdoor education, outdoor adventure background, which lends itself to that. It's an adventure. It's something that's discovered. I have a quick detail question because people are some people are new to this. so, Hayley you said something really nice about letting being let out and onto the land and allowing the land to teach and broader intelligence. And I totally agree, but can you give an example, even just off the top of your head, about what that might look like in a session, I have some ideas about this, but like an office-based session versus an outdoor session -- what's that intelligence? How does it show up? Do you have a sense of it?
Marshall: well, I think it can show up in a variety of ways. I mean it does depend on the on the receptivity of the people, you know, the people that are involved in the actual work. But I think there's you know, one obvious way is in the power of the symbolic realm, so like the metaphorical realm, you know, the way that the languages of the more if you like the more than human, which is a David Abram phrase, speak to us through our bodies. So, you know, like shapes, colors, movement, smell, this whole sensory world, the way all of that starts to enliven someone and their body can effectively start to change the way they think, the way they feel. So, I mean, you know, we sort of know some of this stuff very instinctively. It's like, you know, if you've got something on your mind, often it's great just simply to go outside and go for a walk. And that's a very ancient practice. You know, it's like the medicine walk. We go out, we seek medicine, and the medicine comes through the speaking of the outdoor world, you know, the way it moves in that kind of non-symbolic, it's like through movement and then more obvious symbolic realm which we can sort of associate to through metaphor. and you know so something will appear, I mean, you know, as if by magic, you know, suddenly on the path like where I work, you know, at the moment, the frogs are out. So, they're everywhere. You know, they're leaping about
Doherty: Mm-hmm.
Marshall: so, whatever someone's got going on in their head, they can start to associate with what's around them. Or a classic is like a bird of prey, you know, flying above. If someone's got something really menacing going on in their head, they can start to say, Yeah, it's just like that, you know, that's exactly how I feel. And then they'll see the bird of prey do something that starts to alter, you know, the way they are interacting with the voice in their head. I mean that's a very obvious example. it's very rich territory and I think the practitioner's task is to be able to hold a very broad open space to allow in those associations which could go in any direction. They could go quite spiritual for instance. They could be really practical.
Hinds: Yes. I think I'm totally with this as well. And I think sometimes the practitioner is sort of operating from, you know, backstage as it were and observing. And when the conversation is, you know, the person is trying to make sense of something, you know, there may be a link that could be initiated because of something that they've forgotten, they're a bit blind to, but their focus, their attention on the thing is a valuable piece of information. I've had a similar thing where, you know, a dying man who I used to work in a palliative care setting would always be drawn in the woods to the rotting stump. And we would work with that and then we managed the winter and the springtime and we didn't quite make it to the summertime. But in the springtime, through the process of the work, he was drawn to the little shoots of green that were coming through the leaf litter. it was just a sign that, you know, that there'd been some real progress with him working through some kind of very heavy, very dark, stuff. And he managed to find the life in the end. that sort of work is incredibly moving for both of us, ideally, but sometimes I am moved by the work because of, as Heidi says, the symbolism. It's quite the metaphor. It's quite powerful stuff.
Doherty: Yes, it's really beautiful. I'm thinking about a client that I do walking therapy with, really you know, He’s like rain or shine. He's in his eighties and he's an outdoor person and dealing with dementia and his partner and his own physical frailty. we're in the woods where we hike, you know, age, death, decay, life are all together. It's like all happening at the exact same time.
Unlike in the human world where we kind of put death and decay, you know, away somewhere else, in the woods it's just all right in front of us. So, it's just fascinating. Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful.
Marshall: Yeah.
Hinds: Yeah.
Marshall: Yeah. And that it is beautiful and the other thing that I really like about that way of working is that it although it you know, we're still doing psychotherapy, like the client has come with something that's to them, there's still a way in which it takes people out of out of that just human domain. It's like we're actually also interacting with the world around us. There's a kind of a fractal, you know, like we're working with a bit that's in us that's resonating with things that are going on a much broader frame.
So, you know, like you've just said, like life and death, it's kind of it's all there at the same time. And actually, other things are living and dying. It's not just us that's doing it. you know, and it and that's cause that's one of the critiques of people who are taking the work out, is that it's still saying, “humans are at the center of everything”. And of course, sometimes we are. But actually, I think this practice really does, generally speaking, invite us to think beyond ourselves. You know, and that and that's a mighty thing. The world needs it.
Hinds: Yeah. Yeah. Or as somebody would say to me, try and get over yourself. You know, the idea becomes very transpersonal, doesn't it? It becomes very existential. It becomes very Daoist like because a lot of the Daoists, you know, would paint these paintings, these wonderful, you know, natural environments with a human, very small in the corner or to the center. know, it's just putting us and things into perspective.
Doherty: Yeah, that's well said. Well said.
Marshall: Yeah.
Doherty: Yeah, yeah, exactly. This is so wonderful. We're going to move toward closing here, but it's just a joy to meet people that are, you know, validating to like, yourself. Like so it validates all the things that that I think about. Even years ago, doing, you know, what we call wilderness therapy in the US, we had a saying, we just got to get the young people they were working with. We just need to keep them safe so the real therapists could work, like the big therapist, which is nature. We just got to make sure they don't get frostbitten toes or not drink water and things like that. So, you know, because we're facilitators of this. and that is the same in a city park too. it's just a different scale.
What I where I go with this is that it's just it's just a sense of surprise. Like if you're walking and then particularly with animal sightings, like if a blue heron flies overhead, everyone stops immediately, whatever they were thinking about, and they look at it and it's a moment of presence and that is generally universal. I was just visiting my daughter who's eighteen and she's doing a just, you know, fledgling travel and she's working in Colorado in the US.
Marshall: Yeah.
Doherty: near the Rocky Mountain National Park. I would just saw her a week ago. And when you go to these places, I'm sure it's the same in the Peak District. When there's an animal, like a deer or like there, there's moose or deer or great horned sheep. People just stop. Like all the cars stop. Everyone stops and they look. And no one is upset about it. Like they're not honking like let me get past because everyone, it's just a magical connection.
Marshall: Yeah.
Doherty: So, some of this is really quite hardwired into us, I think this this sense of wonder.
Marshall: Yeah.
Hinds: I think the animals have got an awful lot to teach us and I think our superiority sometimes gets in the way of us being able to understand that they've got an awful lot to teach us.
Doherty: Yeah, and I appreciate that you all can get at this in your book and in our conversation, really deep like transpersonal, mystical, spiritual ideas. But you're still doing it in a very, like Hayley said earlier, disciplined way so that you know, we can get this into the therapy journals and the therapy practices. It takes it's kind of hard to do that, you know.
Marshall: Mm. Mm. Yes.
Doherty: It's easy to blow the frame, like you say, and just be mystical and throw and say I'm going to be a radical, but it's hard to actually get the system to change. So, I really appreciate that you guys are working in that direction. Yeah.
Marshall: Yeah.
Hinds: You definitely need the theory, you definitely need the feeling, you definitely need the spirituality. It's the mind, soul, and body. If you don't have the holy triad there, you don't have the mind, which is the theoretical frame, you don't have the spiritual connection, and you're not using your body, you're not walking, then of course you're going to be missing something. So that holy trinity is really very important, the mind, the body, and the soul.
Doherty: Mm-hmm.
Marshall: Yeah. And you know, I think there is a navigation to be made with the mainstream. I think that's probably another conversation. Yeah, we'll come back. We'll deal with that next time.
Hinds: We've got to come back.
Doherty: Yeah. But you're doing it and yeah. Well, we always say, you know, that time is not enough and I want to keep this conversation going anyway in some other form. But listeners, you've got a really good intro, I think, to this work and to Hayley and Joe's background. In the show notes to the episode, we'll put links to the new volume and some of these classic papers and whatever else you both would like to share because there's there is a new generation of people just discovering this work and it's really, I think grounding to know that there are some elders and people that have been you know doing this for a while, you know we're not alone. That's just another general takeaway in all this work. We're never alone either with other people that care the same or other species or the earth. So, with that we're going to wrap it up.
Marshall: Okay. Yeah.
Doherty: but Hayley and Joe, such a pleasure to chat with you on the podcast and we will get this out this summer and I'll let you know. Hayley, and Joe and listeners and also speaking for Panu who's not with us today, everyone be well.
Marshall: Thank you.
Hinds: Thank you very much, Thomas, Thank you.
