Season 2, Episode 17: On Trees and Forest Protectors

Apr 14

Season 2, Episode 17: On Trees and Forest Protectors

Thomas and Panu took time to speak about trees, beings great and small with whom we share the planet, and the disenfranchised grief that we suffer when we witness the loss of trees and forests, in our own neighborhoods and across the world. Join us to listen in on the conversation, and let us know what you feel about this issue.

Transcript

Transcript edited for clarity and brevity.

[music: “CC&H theme music”]

Thomas Doherty: Please support the climate change and happiness podcast see the donate page at climatechangeandhappiness.com.

Doherty: Well, hello, I am Thomas Doherty.

Panu Pihkala: And I am Panu Pihkala.

Doherty: And welcome to Climate Change and Happiness. Our podcast. This is a show for people around the globe who are thinking and feeling deeply about the personal side of climate change. We focus a lot on our emotional responses to this issue. And our feelings. And all the many things that are connected to this in the world. And one of the beautiful things that's connected to our feelings about nature and the environment, and our environmental identity is another class of beings that we share the planet with trees. Trees.

And today our episode is about trees. And we're going to go in many directions with this. But both Panu and I both know a lot about the research about trees and human health and human identity and mental health. And, of course, I'm in the Pacific Northwest, which has its own unique cultural associations with the big trees of North America. And Panu is in Finland, which, of course, has its own association with northern forests and trees. And you all have your own associations with trees of various kinds. Including trees you know personally. So that's where we're going today. And this episode will touch on many other things that we've talked about over the last year. Panu, do you want to get us started off on this really rich topic?

Pihkala: Yes, greetings from the land of tree people! Because the Finno-Ugric people, of whom the Finns are one part and [others are] Estonians and Hungarians and then several smaller tribes in the current Russian area, they are known for the importance of trees for their whole worldview and ancient religion. And in Finland, the relationship with trees is both profound and complex. Because also, it's a major national industry thing. Things one does with the trees. But then also very locally, in various places, towns and cities, there are these important trees. And sometimes also conflicts about what to do with them. And I know Thomas, that you had a sort of profound experience related to this. So would you like to share a bit about that?

Doherty: Yeah, thanks, Panu. So many incredible directions to go with this topic. Yeah, and I'm unfortunately going to start out with a sad story that really is close to home to get us going. It doesn't limit our discussion today. But it is a sad story to start. So listeners can be prepared for that. But anyway, where I live in the City of Portland in the state of Oregon in the US, you know, and my neighborhood is what's called Northeast Portland. You know, it's a residential neighborhood. But there used to be a big, you know, primeval forest here. Sometimes there are conflicts between large trees and landowners and debates about whether to save trees or not. And we lost a huge tree here in the neighborhood. And it was a long story. And I'm just going to read a paragraph that gives a summary of this. That I shared with people here last December. December 2022. And it'll just give you a sense of the complexity of this issue. So I'll just read what I wrote because it captured my thoughts and feelings on that morning, December 6 2022. You know, I wrote.

I watched a 100+ foot giant sequoia tree being cut down and removed in my neighborhood today, just a block from my house. The tree had grown up close between two residential houses and undermined one of the house's foundations, leaving it derelict. The other homeowners, a couple, waged a long battle to save the tree. They garnered international support through a petition and a GoFundMe drive. Tragically, just as they found a developer to take on the property and guarantee keeping the tree, some unknown person drilled into the tree and poisoned it, mortally wounding the tree and sabotaging the deal. Over the past year, the tree's canopy has browned and died off. The couple was so demoralized that they moved from the state. This tree was about 100 years old and sequoias can live for thousands of years. The industrial scale removal was remarkably efficient, huge pieces of the trunk lowered down by crane and many of the limbs, even the large ones, immediately fed into a wood chipper. There was no neighborhood notice and through the day people stopped to watch and take pictures. I contacted some local news agencies as they previously covered the story, but none arrived as far as I know. It was very hard to concentrate or get any work done today. Such a real world example of disenfranchised loss and grief. I had offered my support and coping tips to the folks that tried to save the tree, and I had donated to the cause. But like others I am sure, I have the question of whether I could have done more.

I share this as a way to bear witness and move against the isolation these events breed. And because I know many of you will understand.

That's my story of the Sequoia. An example that came home to me personally. And just how bizarre and absurd it seemed that I do this environmental work. And I was powerless to really do anything about, you know, to do more with this tree. And then the bystanders syndrome that happens. And then just watching the tree literally from my front porch. I can see the canopy and see it browning and just worrying. And then when I noticed the big crane trucks that morning, I knew that the end had come. So anyway, I share that just to give listeners a sense of how this manifests. And I know listeners have similar stories to this. That's the whole point of our episode that we think of trees, you know, philosophically and intellectually forests. You know, forests being the lungs of the Earth.

But we also know individual trees and places that become part of our environmental identity. Part of our relationships. Our lifeline. So that's where this topic goes. It gets really personal. And that's normal, very normal for people for it to be personal. So what's coming up for you, Panu, as I describe this. I know you've got a lot of different ways that you might think about this as a philosopher and as a researcher, and as a Finn.

Pihkala: Yes, thanks, Thomas for sharing that. And, of course, it evokes sadness and compassion. It's got to do with emotional attachments and values. And partly, I think, with worldviews, also. And I'm a person who is very fond of trees myself. So I can resonate with some examples in personal history also. In the neighborhood, where I'm living in eastern Helsinki, there's an old manor and some of the trees nearby are from that period. So one very conspicuous one is a poplar, which is not a native tree in Finland. At least not for a long time. When there was a warmer period in climate history, then there might have been some; at least there were more oaks during that time. But anyway.

So I also remembered today, when I saw that people are starting to do something with it. So there is a sort of shock element in it. There's lots of elements of a grief process. And there's the dynamics of whether the loss is recognized by others. And whether you have been able to prepare for it. There's this possibility for feelings of helplessness and powerlessness, which you also also described. There's the dynamics around responsibilities, and a sort of negotiation with possible guilt. Which then, again, is a common feature in all kinds of loss and grief processes. It's very human to ask: could I have done something to prevent this? Or could I have done something more? That's, again, very close to what I've been doing in my research work lately. Where I've been looking at the intersections of grief and bereavement theory with ecological emotions. So this touches on many of those things. So I can resonate with this both on a personal level and as a researcher. And I know, Thomas, that you've been thinking about these emotional attachments that people have with trees also. So would you like to say something more about how you see that one?

Doherty: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's important to, you know, to breeze through this topic. We started out with a really troubling narrative about the loss of the sequoia tree. Which is really sad. And it could bring tears to your eyes to tell these stories. And I've heard many people share similar narratives that were really influential on their life. All around the world. I've heard these stories. We can also just come back and orientate ourselves in a positive way about this. I mean, obviously, our grief and connections with trees are not officially recognized in economics and science and in law. So when we lose these trees, our grief is not recognized officially. That's what that term disenfranchised grief means, right? So it's like, we lose it and it breeds that isolation that often happens. And then we have to band together almost in a revolutionary way to share our grief.

But there's a famous chapter in conservation psychology by the late researcher Robert Summer, Trees and Human Identity. And he just does such a great job describing how the many, many ways that trees influence our human identity across the lifespan from being children to being elders. And, you know, understanding how our relationship with trees influences our physical health, our mental health, and our identity. And all the metaphors that come from trees. The roots of the trees. The branch of the trees. The world's tree. You know, it's woven into religion and philosophy and art. You know, evolutionary theory looks at how, you know, humans are related, you know, to trees. I mean, the human hand is shaped the way it is because it evolved to climb. And, you know, was, so when you grab a branch on a tree, and it feels really natural to hold onto, that's not an accident. That's why our hand is made that way. And when we feel good, in the trees or in a place where we can look from trees, that's woven into our psyches, and our minds and bodies in a very deep way. And so these, like, we talk about different words, like, you know, I think it's called “komorebi” in Japanese. You know, the idea of light filtering through the leaves. Dappling through the tree. So there's different words in different languages that capture trees.

And of course, we have traditions, like forest bathing. You know, in Asian countries where people bathe in the [air and setting of the] forest. And the smells of the forest and the fields of the forest, and the idea of “forest therapy.” Which is a term that would be used in Finland. Not so much in the US. We talk about “wilderness therapy,” or “outdoor therapy.” But in other countries in Europe it would be called forest therapy. You know, and the idea of healing in the forest. So there's a ton of positive things. And I guarantee every one of us. Everyone is listening. When we look at our environmental identity timeline. And all the experiences that we've had, over our lives, regarding nature and the natural world, there are trees involved there. People know what it's like to climb trees as a child and to play in trees. And people cultivate trees in their homes. And they visit trees. They make journeys to see the Redwoods in California. And to see the old trees around the world. So there's just so much positive stuff, too.

Pihkala: Yeah, yeah. Totally resonating with that, also. And I think it's very important to give children the opportunity to climb trees, if only they are up to it in any way. And that's a classic theme in environmental education also, nowadays, because this culture around security has good sides, but also bad sides. And one of the bad sides is that some people think that children shouldn't climb trees anymore, because they may fall from them. There was one study in Britain awhile ago, where they looked at statistics and found out that many more children went to the hospital because they had fallen out of their bed than from trees. So home is a very dangerous place if you put it this way and look at the accidents. But yeah, hopefully, as many people as possible have a safe home. But you know, this statistical point. But even in research on climate emotions, people may start talking about close affinities with trees. And that sort of testifies to these interconnections between topics. And, for me, about the great, both physical and psychological and symbolic significance of trees for people.

And I was very glad to read the article Thomas mentioned. It's a great overview of the many connections that people may have. But there is a link now, even between climate issues and this topic. And of course, if we look at the larger developments, then global warming is changing trees and forests. And for example, in Finland, we've had geographical lines, you know, the most northern places where certain tree species grow. We are very high in the north, actually. And it's just the Gulf Stream coming from the Atlantic, which gives us enough warmth that we can do much more farming than in Alaska even though we are quite close as far north. So the three species are moving more north in Finland. And that's causing ecosystem change. So there's, you know, changes and possible feelings of loss, both in relation to single trees and large scale changes in forests. And, of course, there may be positive developments, also. Having more nice trees through which to experience komorebi. That's also becoming more possible in Finland. But then lots of ecosystem changes have many threatening aspects also, like the spread of certain insects. And so on.

Doherty: Yeah. I mean, again, this is an ecological topic. As we talk about, “when you pick on one thing in the universe you find it hitched to everything else” [John Muir]. And when you pick on the leaf of one tree, one branch, you know, one twig, you find it hitched to so many things. Climate change. Tree cover in neighborhoods. It's, you know, when we talk about our environmental identity. It's intersectional, with all kinds of other forms of identity and with social justice. That's one direction here to go. I mean, climate change is making it really warm, particularly in urban areas, particularly in poor marginalized neighborhoods. So people are much more aware now of the idea of the urban heat effect with heat waves. And how dire it can be in neighborhoods that are denuded of trees. So trees are becoming a social justice issue for neighborhoods. It's a marker of privilege to have trees even.

And it's very, very obvious in my city. My neighborhood is traditionally a lower income neighborhood. And so these trees like Sequoia are very rare. Whereas if you go just just a quarter of a mile south to, you know, another neighborhood that's more privileged, there's these huge, beautiful trees. Maple trees line the avenues. It's very shady. So it's an absolute mark of socio-cultural privilege and social justice trees. Obviously, a rich, long tradition of forest protectors. People trying to save and protect the trees around the world. in all areas, and all countries and all nations. Beginning with, you know, indigenous people that are still innately involved with trees in the forest.

Here in the US, obviously, this brings us up to the recent issue in Atlanta, with the Atlanta Public training facility in the shooting of Manuel Tehran. Tortuguita, The environmental activist, and forest protector who was shot by the Georgia State Patrol. And the controversy around that. So that's a great example where climate change is turning up the volume on this. Turning up the temperature, you could say. Where that forest in Atlanta is being seen not just as a forest to protect, but also part of history. Part of the local history with racism and slavery and policing. And of course, urban heat. And, you know, traditionally black neighborhoods. And trying to protect that forest. So it falls into line with all of these other big issues. There's a logic of appropriateness now. Where it's like, it's not appropriate to do these things. People won't stand for it, you know. And so these projects that would have been pushed through in the past, people are standing against them for a number of reasons. So this gets into literature with books like The Overstory, as you know. And then I know, your favorite and mine. JRR Tolkien has interesting traditions regarding trees. Do you want to say a little bit about your Tolkien connection?

Pihkala: Yes. I'd love to come back to that a bit later. But just staying with the intersectional dimension for a while. So that really seems global, as you say, and so many things converge. Both, you know, trying to keep the rain forests also for climate and carbon reasons. And just the biodiversity dimension. Maybe there's also justice dimensions in many places as you mentioned. There's some very famous cases in Europe, also about trying very courageously to protect old growth forests [for example, in the Hambach forest in Germany]. There's very little of them left in Europe. So, for example, in Finland, if you look at the aerial pictures, you'll see a lot of green. But we don't have many old growth forests anymore. Most of them have been cut down at least once with biodiversity impacts. But there's great people protecting and trying to protect those forests. And there's many very inspiring cases of that.

In literature, Tolkien is one of the world's most famous writers, I think, not the least because of many movies by Peter Jackson and colleagues in the 2000s. So he was a person who was very fond of trees. And one of the great places to check this out if somebody is interested in the book Letters of JRR Tolkien. Meticulously edited by an editor [Humphrey Carpenter], and also with the help of his son [Christopher Tolkien]. And there he is, writing sometimes quite directly, how he also wanted to create fiction where, at least once, the trees could stand up for themselves. So that's one dimension in this Lord of the Rings mythology. But of course, there's a lot more than that to Tolkien's relationship with trees and various kinds of things.

Doherty: Yeah. Many people are aware of emotional connection with the Ents. The species of beings in Middle Earth that kind of resemble trees. They're like moving trees. And that word comes from an old English word for giants. So trees often have this sense of giantess. I mean, there's so many fascinating directions to go with this. One of my early books that I read years ago, Landscape and Memory by historian Simon Schama. It was an environmental history book. [It] talked about the sacred groves of northern Europe, and the Celts. And how churches, you know, were essentially groves. And even the great cathedrals, like the Gothic cathedrals of Notre Dame and Chartres cathedral were actually meant to evoke tall, overarching trees. Which I never realized. And so in terms of my environmental identity as someone from the Northern European cultures, it was really helpful for me to see that connection between trees and religion. Woven into the ancient cultures there. And even just see the environmental justice issues going far back. One of the strategies the Romans had, when they were overtaking the Celtic countries, was to cut down the sacred groves of trees. You know, to take over power from the people.

So that same story, of course, played out in North America. You know, in terms of colonizers taking over people's places. So it's a very fraught issue because I know in the Pacific Northwest, many people, families traditionally, as you know, within Finland as well. Their families grow up working in the forestry industry. In the forest products industry. and it's a huge part of the economy in these places. and all over the Pacific Northwest every town essentially began as a logging town. Everyone. Everyone. It always goes back. The main street Burnside in Portland used to be the skid road where they would slide the logs down from the hills down to the ships, right? So it's woven into our culture here. And so it's another form of disenfranchised grief because we haven't balanced out the need for trees and the need for people's ability to have a livelihood and the loss and grief. So it's kind of a tragic situation that we're still trying to muddle through.

Pihkala: Yeah, yeah. It can be very, very tricky. And some folks in Finland like the photography artists Ritva Kovalainen and Sanni Seppo have done great things in doing books, where they have not only included photos of different forests, but also stories of people who relate to the forest in different ways. So there are nature protectors, but also different kinds of forest owners and to bring out the scope and scale of foreign relations. And that doesn't of course, remove all the tensions but that's one way forward to try to understand a bit more about the various perspectives that people have. That being said, these people have also been very important proponents of making “forest grief,” or whatever one wants to call it, as a publicly recognized thing. And I've also sometimes used my public voice for the same purpose. And even in those cases, where the democratic decision then would be to cut down the tree or the forest, even then the grief and losses should be recognized. And this is a tricky subject also, because one can easily see a possibility for misusing this, you know. Providing therapeutic services to people so that they don't stand up so much for the trees that we are going to lose. But I believe that there might be some balances found. So that's defending moral standing, could be combined with also necessarily sometimes then facing grief together.

Doherty: Yeah. We'll have several really interesting links in this podcast to different stories and films. There's so many to name these trees, Sequoia, Redwood, the Wollemia Pine in Australia. The Baobab in Madagascar. The oaks of Ireland, you know, the Doherty clan, my last name, you know, one origin of the name comes from the oak in Derry there. Thich is the name you know, oak in Celtic language there. So, if listeners have examples of these rituals, please let us know. I really do think it should just be part of our culture to have some rituals. I know native Native people, indigenous people understand this. And do have rituals that are intact for you know, for millennia, 1000s of years.

But we need modern rituals. Because we do need to cut down trees that Sequoia that I mentioned early on, was in a tough spot. Someone could argue that it was dangerous in that position. And it could fall and injure people in a storm. Trees do fall. Ice storms and recent climate change weather patterns have changed what trees are used to experiencing. And so we are getting extreme loss of trees for various reasons because of temperature, because of invasive species, because of ice storms. So we are going to lose trees and it can be dangerous. But it's that our building codes and our urban laws don't recognize primal realities for people's connections with nature. That's the problem. So it isn't that we won't cut down trees ever. I don't think that's what trees want. We can live in connection with trees. And using trees and helping them help us to live it's just really a question of having more of a reality about this that honors our emotional life. So if people have thoughts about this, please let us know.

We've got a nice trend coming with our episodes here. We have an episode coming up regarding wolves. We have episodes around children in nature coming up. So there's a lot of mixed nuanced feelings here. So making room for the sadness and the loss. But also the joy, exhilaration. I can remember even now as a child, the exhilaration of really climbing a tree. Really tall, really getting up there. Farther out of your comfort zone. Way up in a tall tree. Building a treehouse for my daughter which I never had as a child so of course I built her a tree house. And we spent a lot of time with that. And have had images of building another tree house very tall in a tree that I have near my house. And I haven't been able to have the time to finish it. But there's something so beautiful and primal about being in the trees. So yeah, we're almost time to wrap up here Panu, but I'm really glad we were able to finally get to this topic. It makes me feel good to be able to talk about it. You want to lead us out with any other ideas for your evening and my day here?

Pihkala: Yeah, it's been great to talk about trees. And all the importance they have. And we'll share some links to some research also about collective action on the behalf of trees. But also collectively, lamenting or mourning trees. So there's many sides to this but perhaps to bring us to close I'd like to quote John Muir who of course is a famous tree loving person. And in one of his books, he tells of climbing a very tall tree, in quite stormy, windy weather. And then sort of wavering there in the wind to get to the top of the tree. And he has this quote:

“We all travel the Milky Way together, trees and men; but it never occurred to me until this storm-day, while swinging in the wind, that trees are travelers in the ordinary sense. They make many journeys, not extensive ones, it is true; but our own little journeys, away and back again, are only little more than tree-wavings — many of them not so much.”

from Mountains of California, 1894; by John Muir, naturalist, explorer, and writer (1838-1914)

So this from John Muir in the beginning of the 20th century or the late 19th. And referring of course, to all human beings, not just men.

Doherty: Yeah, beautiful. Just reminds me of the research on people climbing the great Redwood trees. Hyperion. The great Redwood tree in California. And swaying in the branches there. So listeners can really think about this. One of the quotes that I saw in my reading was from an organizer that said, you know, we're not sure if we organize communities to plant trees or plant trees to organize communities. Right? So it's woven in together here. So think about how trees play into your lives. And let us know what this all means for you. And know that you're not alone in your feelings about trees. There are many, many, many, many, many of us around the world that really love trees. And feel nothing wrong with hugging a tree. And breathing into the tree. And really feeling with that being. And the trees are on the move as you know, as Panu says they are migrating slowly.

Anyway, this is Climate Change and Happiness. You can find us at climatechangeandhappiness.com. See all these episodes and show notes and various things that you can't find on your podcast platform. And you can also support us at our Patreon at climatechangeandhappiness.com. And we really do need some support to keep going and making these episodes. So thank you very much and everyone be well

Pihkala: Take care.

Doherty: The Climate Change and Happiness Podcast is a self-funded volunteer effort. Please support us so we can keep bringing you messages of coping and thriving. See the donate page at climatechangeandhappiness.com

Climate Change And Happiness https://climatechangeandhappiness.com

Season 2, Episode 17: On Trees and Forest Protectors

Season 2, Episode 17: On Trees and Forest Protectors

Links

Transcript

Season 2, Episode 18: Holding Space for Climate Emotions and Possibilities with Psychiatrist Janet Lewis

Season 2, Episode 16: Our Emotional Attachment to Nature with Susan Bodnar