Season 1, Episode 11: Bearing Witness to the Acts of Wynn Bruce and David Buckel

May 27

Season 1, Episode 11 | Bearing Witness to the Acts of Wynn Bruce and David Buckel

Reflecting on the recent self-immolation of climate activist Wynn Bruce as a protest and call to action in the face of climate change, Thomas and Panu discuss the importance of bearing witness to emotionally difficult events. In the teaching of systems thinker, Joanna Macy, they acknowledge both the difficulty and value of staying open to the world even when it is painful and seemingly impossible. Inspired by the writings of Daniel Sherrell in his book Warmth, they reflect on the importance of not reducing all of our climate feelings “into their utility for the movement,” but rather allowing some to exist solely unto themselves.

Transcript

Season 1, Episode 11: Bearing Witness to the Acts of Wynn Bruce and David Buckel

Transcript edited for clarity and brevity.

[music: “CC&H theme music”]

Introduction voice: Welcome to Climate Change and Happiness (CC&H), an international podcast that explores the personal side of climate change. Your feelings, what the crisis means to you, and how to cope and thrive. And now, your hosts, Thomas Doherty and Panu Pihkala.

Thomas Doherty: Well, hello. I am Thomas Doherty.

Panu Pihkala: And I am Panu Pihkala.

Doherty: And welcome to Climate Change and Happiness. Our podcast. A show for people around the world [who are] thinking and feeling deeply about climate change—personal reactions and how climate change affects them in their daily life with their family and with their friends.

And Panu, you know, we've been talking about this general theme of being open to the world. You know, “open heart, open mind.” And taking in the world. Not shutting down. Closing down. And so we were going to talk about this in general. And recently there's been a lot of troubling—even more than typical—troubling news. You know, here when we're recording, about politics and war.

And, you know, recently a person ended their life by burning themselves to death as a protest regarding climate change. Wynn Bruce. And it's been in the news slightly. And it brought up a similar event that happened a few years ago with David Buckel in New York City. And so we were really wrestling about whether we should talk about this. This climate, what I would, call self-sacrifice. The self-immolation. And we decided to move forward into talking about [it] because I think we both think it's important. So, Panu, what's the first thing that comes into your mind when we're thinking about this? Or where do you begin with this kind of thing?

Pihkala: Yeah. You mentioned, Thomas, [that] it's very disturbing and difficult. And, in my mind, it links with many things. One thing is my early history. In my previous work life, I sometimes met people who had very dark thoughts and sometimes also suicidal ideation. But then, again, we have to remember that there are many issues at play here. There's very determined acts of self-sacrifice. Or thinking about things like self-immolation as a strategy for making some kind of impact in climate matters. And then there is the topic of having dark moods or feelings of meaninglessness and that kind of territory.

And in general, as you said, this links strongly also in my mind with the difficulty and importance of staying open to the world. That's something that I've been engaging with for a long time. And Joanna Macy's work has been important for me in that regard. And also local[ly] several others. And then, finally, the very also complex topic of relations between death awareness and environmental awareness. And there's a different viewpoint into that, also including the so-called Terror Management Theory. So there's a lot. And we'll be unpacking at least some of these in this discussion, but I wanted to bring several elements onto the table now.

Doherty: Yeah. And I think we're going to kind of move between some philosophy and psychology and just some human experience here. As I was telling Panu earlier, my thoughts about the death of Wynn Bruce or David Buckel or others (perhaps we don't know about those who have done similar actions). If Panu was walking with his family. Or if I was walking with my daughter in our town and we saw someone who had done this act. Who had burned themselves to death. And then we didn't talk about it. We pretended that it didn't happen. Or we didn't see it. That would be really strange. And if we live in a world where we don't stop and feel these things. Because I don't think that's the world that we want. And so I think we do need to be open to this.

We were talking about social justice. And I think some of the philosophizing about this is, you know, when white people do this kind of; white privileged people do this kind of stuff, you know, we don't know how to understand it. But obviously people die every day. And people have been burned in climate related disasters and in wars all the time. And so when brown lives, black and brown lives are lost, sometimes this doesn't get the same kind of press. So we want to keep all this kind of stuff.

And I think practically therapists and mental health people are unsure how to bring this up. Because well, first of all, they're not trained to think about this. And then also, there's a concern that there might be some sort of contagion effect. Where more people will do this. And we don't want to encourage this kind of behavior. And that's a realistic concern, as well. And so we need to name that. But I don't know that there's really evidence of so-called copycat activities with this kind of thing for various reasons. It's a really extreme act to do. It would take a lot for anyone to do this.

There's another larger conversation about politics and political action and self sacrifice in terms of hunger strikes and various things. You know, I know a little bit about the Irish hunger strikers in Northern Ireland and things like that. So there's a lot of — [I] suggest for the listeners, like, you know, we're making this up as we go as well. We are just thinking through this ourselves. But I think it's important to be open. And to be candid with our feelings. I think, Panu, what you were talking about with me about work from Joanna Macy and Molly Young Brown. Coming Back to Life. Their book. But, you know, the costs of not being open to the world. And what causes not being open to the world. Do you think that would be helpful to talk about a little bit right now? Just to give us some context.

Pihkala: Yeah, I think so. And for those of you who haven't heard of Joanna Macy, she's a systems thinker and a social environmental activist who has been pioneering many methods for encountering difficult emotions related to the state of the world. So already in the 1980s, related to the threat of nuclear war and fallout. And later, even more explicitly with the ecological crises. She is still alive while we are recording this. She’s of great age and considered a sage in this territory by many.

And together with colleagues such as Molly Young Brown, she has been developing what they call The Work That Reconnects. A method of trying to stay open to the state of the world and to increase people's resources. So: Coming from gratitude; Honoring our pain for the world; Seeing with new eyes; and Going forth. These are the names of the rough steps. And now the second step, Honoring our pain for the world, is very much related to what we are talking about today.

And the sort of widest manual to their work is this book Coming Back to Life as a second edition from roughly 2014. And it has an excellent chapter number two, which discusses the various reasons why it's very understandable that people want to block out at least some aspects of reality. Because it can be so painful. It can cause some social disturbance. And people are thinking about—do I really want to make changes in my social settings, for example? How will others think of me if I start to engage with these issues more? So, many different kinds of costs.

And then, also [in the book], a great discussion about the various impacts. Impeded cognitive functioning is one. So if we are not as well in touch with our emotions, that also has an effect on our cognition. But then also, the impact on imagination, for example. Our connection with the world. They go on to discuss some pretty deep stuff related to our connections with the world. And that's, of course, also strongly related to the challenges of inviting people to stay open to the ecological crisis and environmental activism. So if people know that that's going to bring some pain. Because you see others suffering and know much about the troubles in the world, so is there also something to gain?

And I think this idea of when you are able to stay open to the world, it will be more painful than numbing, but it will also be a much richer life, when you can actually feel the joy and feel the sadness and other other emotions. And of course, it's easier to contribute for the common good, if you are able to stay open to the reality. But it's not easy. And they are very realistic about that. But I know, Thomas, that you have been engaging with their work and the work of other ecopsychologists in this regard for a long time. So well, what's your thoughts about that?

Doherty: Well, yeah. I think this is just, Panu, is just a great example. People have been working on this for years. And like I'm always coming back to this idea. We're not alone. And there's people doing this. And I think the loneliness is one of the worst problems here. Trying to cope with this alone. Whereas coping with the community is different. And I think it's really great.

Even though I know this work, it's helpful for me to be reminded, again, that there are costs of not opening to the world. Like we don't think as well. We're not creative. We're kind of shut down. Our imagination is limited. Even in our body, you know, it's kind of like a learned helplessness kind of thing. And, you know, we're kind of numb. And then, you know, when someone's numb, you can poke at them and hit them. And they don't feel it because they're numb. And so that numbing is a self protective, you know, strategy. But it isn't helpful for social change, or working in a system. So we're more vibrant. We're more passionate. You know, we have more fire if we're more open. And so I think, again, it's sort of like, how open do we get?

Then that's the other side of it. It’s like, if we're too open, then we're flooded and overwhelmed and angry and dangerous. And things like that. So it's all of us finding our kind of right level of openness at any given time. And, you know, getting over like you say, the major blocks. Like is it guilt? Is it grief? You know, is it inadequacy? Some of these blocks, like, why we can't. I don't want to talk about this person that ended their life regarding climate change, because I'm not doing enough myself. And I don't have anything to say. Or their action is a reproach to me, you know. But I think that's something—that's a block to move forward to. I don't think that's what they're doing these acts for. I don't really know what's in people's minds, but I think they want people to come together. And so I think having a compassionate place is a good start.

Pihkala: Yeah, definitely. And as much as I know about Wynn Bruce and David Buckel, they wanted to encourage people to take mass level civil action for climate justice. And for mitigation of climate change. So they were not wanting people to get desperate and do more self immolation. But they really wanted to wake people up even more to the great urgency of the crisis. And then there's lots of [published] discussion, especially now, of course, of the Buckel case, because it's been a couple of years [since it], and people have had more time to write in-depth writings about it. But increasingly, I think, also related to this very recent case. And we will put some links to the podcast website, for those of you who want to take a deeper look. And it's quite a complicated issue. And then in these cases, I'm speaking, especially with the Buckel case, they resist any binary categorization. So I think it's quite complex indeed.

And when I was speaking about the Joanna Macy stuff earlier, I think that's closely related to the difficulty that many people are having with connecting to these issues. Because the topic[s] of the ecological crisis and climate crisis is already threatening enough. And then when it becomes linked with death and self immolation, it can simply become too much for many people. Including, I presume, many therapists. But as you say Thomas, it would be totally weird if we wouldn't discuss this. And that would turn into [a] quite absurd situation. This, of course, is also the opening of a great book by Daniel Sherrell called Warmth.

Doherty: Yeah.

Pihkala: That's a book that we both have been engaging with. And it starts exactly with this absurdity of knowing about the self immolation of David Buckel. And then the author sees personally that life is going on as normal in the park. Even, you know, right after these events.

Doherty: Yeah. Yeah, so, you know, for therapists and for people. You know, there's these statements. You know, Panu would come up with some actual statements for therapists to use: “You know, this feels awful, but I want to stay with this with you.” [Or:] “I don't exactly know how to react to this, except I'm convinced that life has meaning and should not be thrown away, even for as important a purpose as this.” And so that, you know, we get to say what our belief is about life and what we think. But we don't have to have all the answers.

It is, yeah, the Sherrell book, Warmth, is a great book. It's a great example of a very deeply written, you know, self examination of climate grief and climate despair. I like some of the things that Sherrell talks about. He talks about this idea of a Bruegel painting. Like one of these old paintings that's a broad tapestry of life in a town. And you see all the different people. And you have to spend a lot of time looking at the painting to see all the different figures and what they're doing. And there's a lot in the painting that you don't see unless you look very closely at all the sections of it.

And so, you know, Bruegel has a painting called Children's Games. Which is just a broad, you know, community square with all the different activities. But that's what our life is like. We have a park. Where some people are running. And some people are meditating. And another person is burning themselves to death all at the same time. And that's kind of a powerful metaphor, you know, for the world. But, you know, we'd say to our listeners too, you know, this feels awful, but we want to stay with you. With this.

Tip from me. When you're reading books like Warmth. Or David Wallace Wells, The Uninhabitable Earth. You know, with Warmth it's best to start at the end. And start in the last several pages because that's where Sherrell brings his argument together. Similar to David Wallace Wells. If you start at the beginning of these books, I think sometimes people don't have the wherewithal to get through it. Because it's such a hard slog. You know, going through the writer's pain. And the writers, you know, either the statistics about the dangers and all the, you know, the cataclysms. Or also the personal pain. But when you get to the end, you know, starting at the end sometimes is a little helpful, because that's where the author is kind of coming together with their thinking.

And I really liked what Sherrell said about how your feelings are not reducible to their utility in the movement. He's a climate movement person. And so your feelings are not reducible to the movement. You know, fear and sadness are tools, but they're also things unto themselves. So that's another point to say that we don't have to translate every single emotion into action. That leads to this guilt and inadequacy. I'm not doing enough. But none of us is doing enough. I mean, we can only do what we can do. And what we do is enough. Like what we're doing is enough we can get. We can try to get better at what we're doing. But as you're dealing with this I think we have to be careful of translating all of our emotions into action. And so some of this is just being with the emotions.

Pihkala: Yeah, I think that's a very important point and links with the things we discussed in our ‘feelings of inadequacy’ episode also. Some months back. And Macy and Young Brown use two words, “stamina” and “buoyancy,” to describe some of the things that are needed. And those came to my mind, also, when hearing you speak about Sherrell's book. And I've had it for at least half a year on my shelf. I've done some reading of it. But now, because of the self immolation thing, I picked it up again and gave it more careful reading. And also for me, even though I've been working with related issues for a long time, partly perhaps because of that, but also, despite it, it's not easy stuff. You know, these books that really go into the heart of the matter.

So I think we need to be honest about that. It's difficult. And one needs to find also things to balance these kinds of engagements which are, then again, very much needed. And Sherrell has a long history with climate activism, also, in the sort of efforts to make structural change. So not just the individual consumer behavior. But trying to work for structural change. So that's a special feature of the book, also. So deep self-reflection about the dark emotions, but also about action.

Doherty: Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Stamina and buoyancy. That's just something to really sit with. Now for some people that might be a stretch. What I call a stretch feeling, you know, from where you are feeling in this moment. To have a sense of stamina. A sense of stamina means strength and ability, capacity, and buoyancy. You know, light lightness. Able to kind of rise above. That's something I'm going to take away from our episode today, firstly, is, you know, that these. They're stretch feelings, though, so I might not feel them right now. But if I put my mind onto them. And I put them on my feelings list. My feelings vocabulary list. I might notice moments when I feel these things. Because we do feel all these things at different times.

And so, again, there's the feeling where we are. You know, whatever that happens to be. And trying to be really clear. Even again about this issue with these people ending their lives. And the self-sacrifice for this political act. Or suicide. Or however you want to call it. I'm thinking of it as a political act. Like a hunger strike or something like that. You know, I might feel confused. I might feel curious. Surprised. Again, there's an off putting sense of all this sort of stuff. It's fearful. It's disgusting. It's unspeakable. But, you know, we can also be present with it. We can be aware. We can be self-loving. And, you know, being vulnerable to sit with these feelings. And then from the vulnerability of the presence. You know, the stamina and the buoyancy isn't as far away. And so, we all have our versions of this kind of stuff in our lives.

Pihkala: Yeah. Very much resonating with that. And in some of my work, four years ago, five years ago, the concept of hope was very central. But even then, my main angle into hope was meaning or meaningfulness. And I think that the issue of stamina is very closely related to that. And, of course, you know, if we talk about those dark moods, where you don't go for self-immolation as a political act, but getting into danger of self-harming behaviors. Then having some kind of meaning or experiencing enough meaning in your life can be even life-saving.

But, of course, that's not just continuing a feeling of always feeling meaningfulness; sometimes it really requires stamina. And sort of walking on. And meaning will present itself. But lots of social support is also needed. So, again, this is not the sort of heroic individual task. Even though the individuals can do many things. But a communal task of also providing support for each other. Clinging onto meaning. Some of the best existential literature in the 20th century, for example, has been written in very dark circumstances. And still the folks like Viktor Frankl explicitly talk about meaning.

Doherty: Yeah. Yeah, we didn't chat about this, Panu. But I was reading about the Zen Peacekeeper movements. And they have their three tenants of [1] not knowing, letting go of fixed ideas about yourself and the world and the universe and [2] bearing witness to the joy and suffering of the world. And then, you know, [3] taking action that arises from this not knowing and this bearing witness. So again, there are people that have been doing this kind of work in various ways. And peacekeepers will go to different war zones. Or go to the sites from the Holocaust and sit and be present to bear witness. So there's a bearing witness. When in doubt, bear witness I would say. Bear witness to the thing and the actions will start to arise from the bearing witness. And from the not knowing.

It's interesting. This Bruegel painting that Sherrell talks about. And I was Googling a bunch of these Pieter Bruegel The Elder artworks from the 1500s. And might encourage listeners to Google some images because they're these elaborate paintings. But it gives us his image of life at all its varied complexities. That it's happening. The teeming multitude of life and activities.

I think that can also bring us to the present moment. And to the news that's in our town. And that's in our community right around us. Because like, as I say, when we get too caught up in the electronic media news, we actually don't know what's going on right around us. And that leads to that isolation. And that anomie. And sense of existential despair. But, you know, the world is happening all around us.

I know we've got to close out this particular talk. The world's happening all around. The listeners, you know, who are in their lives. I'm just starting my day here. Panu, you're finishing your day in Finland. You had shared with me an interesting word earlier, Panu. Another great Finnish word. Communal work. And it was coming up around your life. Do you want to share a little bit about that for the listeners?

Pihkala: Yeah, it's part of this great fabric of life seen in the Bruegel paintings, for example. And this word in Finnish, talkoot, means that you get together with others—You don't get paid for the work, but you do something for the common good. One might say, it might be related in the earlier times, to the needs of one farm. For example, the need to build a roof together. The single family just couldn't do it. So the system was that you offered people some food and drink and then people came together and did the work. And, of course, that then led to reciprocity. People helping each other out. And well, the 21th century has sometimes been hard on this culture of talkoot. But luckily it still exists.

And in the place where I'm living, there’s today these “yard talkoot”, “pihatalkoot” now. Which is a tradition that inhabitants come together outside. And, you know, raking the fallen leaves. We don't rake our forests, contrary to some misguided political opinions. But we do rake our yards. And then there's some grilling of sausages. They even have vegan sausages so our kids can eat it also. And doing sort of maintenance things that need to be done. So there's this very nice social element also of socializing and having fun together. So that's a good antidote to spendings hours reading about these subjects.

Doherty: Yeah. And it's all the one. Right, Panu? I mean your job is to sit with this. And work on this. And also you have a family. And they're somewhere nearby. Where you are people are raking and children are running around and food is being prepared for the community. When we have that energy, you know, in the US with community cleanups and various things. And, again, that's a piece of this that we need to add to our mix as we sit with all of this heavy stuff.

So, you know, reconnecting with life in various forms. So yes, you know, I definitely have a lot of respect for Wynn Bruce and David Buckel and their family and their friends. And we're doing this episode out of respect for them. And not knowing the whole story. And just bearing witness, you know, to this. Bearing witness to these events.

You know, we're inadequate, but we're not guilty of a conspiracy of silence. And I feel really good about that. We're not being silent and we're not splitting. Yes, Panu well enjoy the evening there in Finland. And I hope that you can get your back into the work outside. And help out with people. With all the raking and the yard work. Or enjoy some time with your children and your family and your community this evening.

Pihkala: Thank you, Thomas. I hope you have a nice work day ahead of you. And your daughter is also coming home at some point in the afternoon. And also for all you listeners to take care. In this time we spend the great fabric of life shows many colors.

Doherty: Yes, it's strained and worn, but it's also beautiful. So we'll end today. Climate Change and Happiness. You can find us at climatechangeandhappiness.com. We're producing episodes every two weeks. And we really enjoy your presence. And we wish you all well. Take care.

Climate Change And Happiness https://climatechangeandhappiness.com

Season 1, Episode 11: Bearing Witness to the Acts of Wynn Bruce and David Buckel

Season 1, Episode 11 | Bearing Witness to the Acts of Wynn Bruce and David Buckel

Links

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Season 1, Episode 12: Eco-Anxiety in Finland and the Shouting Man

Season 1, Episode 10: In Praise of Cynicism